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Talk:The Cage (episode)
Cage vs Menagerie? here's a question, since the cage has a different ending than the menagerie, can the cage as a whole, and all the scenes that were cut from the menagerie still be considered canon? :I don't really see how it can be considered to have a different ending -- nothing about the way "The Cage" ended was different from how the events were depicted as ending in "The Menagerie" -- they just omitted the mention that Vina was able to have her own illusory Pike after Pike and the Enterprise left in 2254. Everything else was the same, just edited for brevity. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 14:32, 19 May 2005 (UTC) ::The ending of "The Cage" has a Vina with illusionary health walking off with an illusionary Pike. The ending of "Menagerie" has a Vina illusionary health walking off with the real Pike with illusionary health. --Myko 16:23, 19 May 2005 (UTC) :::yes, but that is an addition, not a change -- the Menagerie simply skips the part where, in the past, Vina meets the illusory Pike. I still consider it canon, its been released in its entirety as the original version. The Cage: # The Talosians give Vina an illusory Pike. # Pike leaves The Menagerie # The scene where Vina meets the illusory Pike is omitted # Pike leaves # Addition Pike returns years later and is given an illusory body. The "real" Pike and Vina meet, in stock footage reused from the omitted scene. I don't see how Pike returning and walking through the same door with Vina contradicts the possibility that an illusory Pike existed -- it simply isnt addressed (not contradicted) by the later adaptation. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk :The contradiction lies in the way the stock footage is used. Some might feel it's a contradiction, others do not. --Myko 18:29, 19 May 2005 (UTC) ::Well do those folks also feel that the Enterprise only visited five planets in TOS? After all, if you say that stock footage is immutable, then Delta Vega is the same planet as M-113, the same planet as Ardana, the same planet as etc.. ::Those who are sensible realize the stock footage represents a different occaosion of a similar thing happening.. -- Captain M.K.B. 14:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC) So, you're saying that canon should be that the Talosians provided Vina with an illusory Pike as the Enterprise first left, then 13 years later, they provided her with the real Pike... and they walked up the same rock the exact same way? --Proudhug 14:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC) :As the person above just stated, if you're going to be that anal about it, then every single planet that reused the same soundstage or the same Vasquez Rocks in California was "canonically" the same planet, and the crew were actually just deluded madmen thinking they were visiting a bunch of different worlds. Gregly 20:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 2009 discussion "The Menagerie" is a canonic episode. Anything mentioned in a canonic episode to the extent that "The Cage" is, by definition, must be considered canonic itself. However, that last image is an illusion for Kirk's benefit; the Talosians are showing him that Pike and Vina WILL BE together, not that they ARE together--because if you say that that's really Pike, albeit Pike with an illusion of youth and health, then you have to explain just how he got down to Talos IV so quickly, given that Spock has just taken him from the briefing room not a minute before.--Jim in NYC 04:28, October 17, 2009 (UTC)Jim in NYC :Not to mention that Pike and Vina are shown climbing a short hill, possible through illusion but completely impossible givin Pike's true state-- 12:53, December 4, 2009 (UTC) ::The whole point of bringing Pike to Talos was to allow him to live a good rest of his life despite his "real state," so no, that is not a contradiction. --OuroborosCobra talk 17:27, December 4, 2009 (UTC) That actually wasn't my point, Cobra--I'm pointing out that Spock leaves the briefing room with Pike, and then less than a minute later, the Talosians are showing Kirk an image of Pike on the planet surface. Just setting up the transporter takes almost a minute, so Pike can't be on the planet surface already. The Talosians are simply showing Kirk an image of Pike and Vina together and happy, as they will be (just as soon as Spock beams him down).--Jim in NYC 01:15, December 5, 2009 (UTC)Jim in NYC :::You're assuming that the cut scene was real time - we don't know how long kirk stood there staring at the door... :) — Morder (talk) 01:24, December 5, 2009 (UTC) ::::I recently watched "The Menagerie", and it appears that less than ten seconds after Spock and Pike left the room, Pike and Vina are shown walking together. There was no obvious time extender like a commercial break or a scene shift, so I don't think it's possible for that to be an extended time. I don't think the production staff intended it to be the Talosian showing Kirk how Pike would be because that conclusion doesn't come as immediately to the viewer as the obvious conclusion. I think that this is most likely a production inconsistency. As for the canon status of this part I'd say that production inconsistencies should simply be considered inconsistent not non-canon. For the argument of pike climbing the hill I would say that he was probably somehow going up in the wheelchair but imagining he was walking. Finally, for the main problem of the discussion: I do find it strange that Vina would easily accept that the Pike she had been left with for years was an illusion and she was only now seeing the real pike, but I think the production staff left out an explanation scene for budget reasons, and to evade evade inter-episode inconsistencies they deleted the "Vina gets fake Pike" seen from the flashback. Still, this creates an inconsistency between "The Menagerie" and "The Cage". Moreover, if you combine this with other inconsistencies with "The Cage" and the rest of the series, for example the problem of Spock's personality, lasers instead of phasers, mentions of rockets in the Enterprise, I think that "The Cage" has inconsistencies that it should not be considered canon. So, the parts of the episode that are included in "The Menagerie" are canon but the parts that are omitted are not.- Yarnek 17:03, December 13, 2009 (UTC) The Cage airdate We all know that The Cage was "Unaired in initial broadcast run", but it did get broadcast at some point. But when? How could we find out? Would it have aired during the run of TNG? Possibly during the second season with it's strikes etc? I think it aired in the UK for the first time on the 13th of May 1992. Igotbit 15:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC) :Earlier today, an anon user changed the airdate from to . The original episode was aired at the same time as The Star Trek Saga: From One Generation To The Next. As it happens, this was originally aired on 4 October, but some markets delayed it until 15 October. As such, I've reset the airdates to the original ones. -- sulfur 16:13, 12 November 2008 (UTC) Transcripts in disagreement Spock's wording when Talosian's are taking information from the ship's computers is different in several online transcripts. Is it "this fly", "this file", or as I hear it, "the supply" (as in a 60's computer term corresponding to today's term "memory")? Curious. -- 19:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC) I'd say fly because that goes with Spock's earlier analogy: "they could swat this ship as though it were a fly" -Yarnek 17:16, December 13, 2009 (UTC) Scene 124 from my paper copy of the November 20, 1964 Final Draft script of "The Cage" has the following dialogue: JOSE: I can't shut it off. It's running through our library, our tapes, microrecords, everything. It doesn't make sense. SPOCK: Unless they're collecting all the information in this "fly". We've waited around too long...they've decided to swat us. So, it looks like it is indeed "fly" in the actual script--referring back to Spock's earlier analogy. GSchnitzer 00:21, January 17, 2010 (UTC) Nitpick I removed the following nitpick as per the discussion on Ten Forward. :The Talosians apparently have enough medical knowledge to repair Vina's injuries and save her life. The Talosians are also humanoid (with some differences, obviously) and have enough mental ability to read Vina's thoughts. Vina also was travelling with a group of scientists when the crash of the ''Columbia took place. Shouldn't sufficient anatomical knowledge be available to prevent -- or at least greatly reduce -- Vina's disfigurement? Or have the Talosians lost more than their mechanical abilities living old memories and thoughts?TXPAScot 14:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)'' The Cage Airdate (from ) It has been well documented that the original pilot The Cage did not air in the original run of The Original Series, but it did air at some point. Possibly during TNG's first/second season troubled period. Is there a way of finding out when The Cage was shown on US TV? Igotbit 20:19, 3 March 2006 (UTC) :"The Cage" was aired for the first time in its entirety and in full color in 1988 as part of The Star Trek Saga: From One Generation to the Next. Aholland 04:20, 6 March 2006 (UTC) :That's a great start, but does anyone know the airdate for The Star Trek Saga: From One Generation to the Next? It's not on IMDB & I did a Google search for it but found next to nothing. It doesn't help that the word Saga is so oftn applied to Star Trek and Jonathan Frakes hosted a documentary called: Journey's End: The Saga of the Next Generation. If it jogs the memory The Star Trek Saga: From One Generation to the Next was presented by Patrick Stewart Igotbit 18:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC) ::The first air date was October 4, 1988. See http://www.craveonline.com/print.php?sid=689. Aholland 02:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC) :::I've seen "The Star Trek Saga: From One Generation to the Next" in circa 1997 and recorded it on VHS, but I don't know where I put it... I've last seen it 4 or 5 years ago. It's not a great documentary, aside from presenting "The Cage" in it's full original format it is quite short and hasn't got too much interesting stuff. But there's one mystery I did not find the answer since then: why is DeForest Kelley and all his contributions to ST ommitted from it? Even in a scene from ST: TMP they show a pan and scan version only showing Kirk and Spock while in the full widescreen version McCoy is also present. Anyone knows the answer?? I clearly remember watching this documentary my Freshman year of college. It aired just before Season 2 of TNG started. I remember hearing about Star Trek V, Ten Forward, and Guinan for the first time in that special. When the Cage started there was an introduction by GR, the very same introduction that is on the TOS Season 3 DVD. ::I suspect it's probably because the special documentary was little more than a wrap-around to fill out the two hours they had slotted out to air "The Cage" in. It was a very brief (in comparison to others) documentary, basically just hitting the main highlights of the original series run and first four movies. Then after "The Cage," a VERY brief look at Star Trek V and then talk about the first season of TNG with a small preview of season two. If memory serves, the special aired sometime in September, around the time the season would have started if not for the writer's strike, which pushed the season back to late November. – leandar 19:23, 12 September 2007 (UTC) IMDb states on this page: http://imdb.com/title/tt0059753/releaseinfo that it premiered on US video in 1986 and aired on US television in September 1988. Unfortunately no exact date is given for either. – Ds093 20:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC) Leonard Mudie's age It is stated on this page that Leonard Mudie was, at 85, the oldest actor ever to appear on TOS. It's just, he wasn't 85. His year of birth is given as 1883 - thus he would have been 81 at the time the scene with him in it was shot. It seems that someone got his or her arithmetics wrong here! :D --Maxl 10:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Extra data This little bit was left in the page source by DYKbot when the new episode sidebar templates were introduced. They represent extra data in the old table that didn't have a known place in the new tamplate. So what are we going to do with it? And what does an exact date for "pilot story outline" mean anyway? What is the source of this information? --Bp 01:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC) I'm not the originator of the sidebar you mentioned, but to answer your question: the date is simply the date that GR typed on the outline he submitted. It is usually the date one finishes and submits a work. The date comes from "The Making of Star Trek" by Stephen E. Whitfield. Sir Rhosis 19:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC) Nimbus what's the reference to Nimbus 1 in this episode? is it the first planet in the Nimbus system? - User:142.162.48.37 :See here - Philoust123 15:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC) ::Yeah, or just see the article you linked to yourself... :) -- Cid Highwind 16:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC) Green Orion Make-up Tests Hasn't it been conclusively established (specifically in "Inside Star Trek" by Solow and Justman) that it was Majel Barrett who got painted green for the make-up tests, only to have them continually be "corrected" by the film processing lab? I'm not going to revert it until I read the book again, but perhaps someone with a copy could do so. There are numerous stills of Barrett in the Orion green make-up. Why else would she be wearing it? Sir Rhosis 22:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC) Justman tells the story of the Barrett color test in one of the extras in one of the TOS DVDs. I've seen a lot of "is it true" on this site, when the confirmation is told by one of the participants in the DVD extras. Are you guys not paying attention? It doesn't say there are no ship's phasers or photon torpedos A trivia entry says that "The Cage" is in canon violation to "Enterprise," (or vice-versa) because in "The Cage" they have to take a portable laser weapon down to Talos to fire at the knoll instead of firing from the ship. I don't recall any specific dialogue that established the portable unit was the only ship's defense. Perhaps they simply chose to take it down and set it up thirty feet away to get better pinpoint aiming accuracy. IMHO, the entry is shaky at best and should be removed. Sir Rhosis 20:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC) :Away it goes :) --OuroborosCobra talk 21:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC) Removed POV Removed opinionated POV. --From Andoria with Love 11:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC) :* Although this episode is often lauded for its depiction of Majel Barret's character of Number One as a strong willed, capable woman as second in command of the Enterprise, it should be noted that the complete version of the episode contains Pike's reference to his discomfort with having women on the bridge (complete with an insulted reaction from Number One and Pike's half-hearted attempt to cover up his faux pas). Considering the presentation of women as highly capable, equal members of society in virtually all subsequent Star Trek programs (including Star Trek: Enterprise, which precedes this story chronologically by over a century), this short sequence is painfully reflective of chauvinistic, 1960's attitudes. Thankfully, this dialogue was not re-featured in The Menagerie. ::For some reason, this got returned, so I removed it again. MA isn't for opinion and commentary.– Cleanse ( talk | ) 00:53, May 8, 2010 (UTC) the true release date It says here that The Cage was originally released on VHS in November 1986. If this is so, then November 1986 is the true release date of The Cage. However, I can't find a source for this. I can't find this supposed VHS on eBay or Amazon.com or anywhere else. Can anyone show me a source for the 1986 date? Changes to production credits Someone just anonymously made enormous edits to the production staff credits, coincidentally after I started discussing Jim Danforth's possible work on this (on TrekPropZone). What is the citation, reliable sources for these changes? If they can't be provided, I'm tempted to revert the changes as unsubstantiated. Opinions? -- Kojiro Vance | Talk 18:25, 2 August 2009 (UTC) :What enormous edits are you referring to? The last two (by 99.167.* on August 02) were just changing "Prop Maker" to "Model Maker" and adding "Matte Painter:Albert Whitlock" to the list. -- Cid Highwind 09:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC) From my glance at the history, it looked like a lot of lines changed ... maybe it was just additional lines for spacing that was changed. Still, changing Danforth's credit without corroboration is a problem for me. His credit at IMDB is listed as "prop maker (uncredited)," which could be in error, too. We just don't know. Does ANYONE have a reliable source? -- Kojiro Vance | Talk ::The problem is IMDb lists him as model maker per http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0199453/ since it's currently the only source we have it should stay as model maker. — Morder (talk) 20:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC) article title? Is there a logical reason why this crucial Star Trek pilot episode is The Cage (episode), and a subtle in-joke never mentioned and barely seen on screen is awarded the article title The Cage? I can't imagine that more than 1% of all people searching for "The Cage" are looking for The Cage and not The Cage (episode). TheHYPO 23:07, December 4, 2009 (UTC) :All episodes have the "(episode)" at the end of their title for use with the template. It's a limitation of the metawiki code unfortunately. -- sulfur 23:24, December 4, 2009 (UTC) ::Yeah, "The Corbomite Maneuver", "Journey to Babel", "Trials and Tribble-ations", and "Far Beyond the Stars" itself all have the same thing.--Ten-pint 19:18, December 6, 2009 (UTC) :Again... every episode has it. Every. :) -- sulfur 19:43, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Twilight Zone The following note has lacked citation (that it was intentional and not just a coincidence) for over a year now: * "The Cage" may have been inspired by the ''Twilight Zone episode " ", which also featured a telepathic Susan Oliver tricking a Human (Roddy McDowall) into a cage. That episode itself was based on Paul W. Fairman's short story "Brothers Beyond the Void," first published in the March 1952 issue of Fantastic Adventures. – Cleanse ( talk | ) 03:54, September 4, 2010 (UTC) Transporter Room I have a picture of the transporter room from this episode do you want it? 20:10, September 30, 2010 (UTC) is this significant? :The briefing room, transporter room and bridge in this segment are almost identical to the sets used in "Where No Man Has Gone Before". Does segment = episode? How is the fact significant? This is my first look at this page.Derekbd 21:32, March 1, 2011 (UTC) Removed I'm midway through a big clean-up of this page and am removing the following notes from the article: :Leonard Nimoy as Spock is also the only actor and character to appear in every single produced episode of the original series of ''Star Trek.'' :CBS was first approached to air ''Star Trek, but they passed on it for another science fiction program called Lost in Space. After its home studio, Desilu, was bought by the new Paramount Television wing in 1968, Star Trek was a dual Paramount film/TV property for its entire lifespan until parent corporation Viacom split its film and TV assets into separate companies late in 2005. This restored the independence of CBS Corp. for the first time since its 2000 acquisition, and left CBS – as the core of Viacom's TV assets – winding up with Star Trek after all.'' Both these notes seem to pertain more to the original series in general than to this specific episode. --Defiant 12:55, July 27, 2011 (UTC) Another note I've removed is as follows: :'' The Star Trek Compendium speculates that the captain's hat seen here might have been part of Pike's dress uniform.'' I can find no source for this, and it's certainly not in the part of The Star Trek Compendium that pertains to "The Cage"; I've been over that section with a fine tooth-comb. --Defiant 08:39, July 28, 2011 (UTC) I've removed several uncited notes from User:Ltarex. Not only is there clearly more than enough uncited information already on the page, but there are specific reasons why I removed each one. Describing Oscar Katz as "the creative head of Desilu" seems far less encyclopedic than calling him "the president of Desilu Television". Adding that Harvey P. Lynn was Roddenberry's technical adviser not only on the pilot but also later on the first season of the series seems beside-the-point and irrelevant, as we're dealing with "The Cage" here, not the first season, and if users want to check out what else he did, they can very easily just access the page about Lynn. That note also disrupts the flow of this article, IMO. Lastly, I can find no source for describing Ashley-Famous as "Roddenberry's agent"; the book Inside Star Trek: The Real Story (the only source cited for the info) seems to consistently refer to it as the agent of Desilu (as well as actors, etc. but not Roddenberry). These notes may be readded if they are cited. --Defiant 12:57, August 8, 2011 (UTC) Spock and the Enterprise? Should the background info of this article include details on the design and casting of Mr. Spock, and the design of the Enterprise, as they're both first shown here? I'd think this article would be gigantic, if so, but the page might otherwise be seen as "incomplete", if not. Some advice on this would be greatly appreciated. --Defiant 08:18, July 29, 2011 (UTC) :The pages for pilot episodes should focus on the episode itself and don't have to cover everything about the creation of the series to be considered "complete". The things you mention would be better placed on Spock, and Constitution class model. –Cleanse ( talk | ) 00:11, July 30, 2011 (UTC) Yeah. I thought as much, but thanks for the confirmation. --Defiant 09:59, July 30, 2011 (UTC) "A woman on the bridge" In rewriting the plot summary, I gave greater emphasis to the womanhood of two bridge crewmembers--especially as both were selected as potential breeding partners for the Captain. I found Pike's discomfort at "a woman on the bridge" relevant enough to include--and astonishing. No matter how politically correct Starfleet is or isn't, it is unbelievable that someone trained for command would first utter, on meeting a new subordinate, that he "can't get used to" anyone of that person's entire class (not that he might feel that way, or disclose it to Boyce over another martini, but that he would say it in her presence). A blemish in the script, in my opinion, though hardly worth any mention on the page. Spike-from-NH 11:42, January 2, 2012 (UTC) :Well, we could suppose it was meant as a joke. Not a very funny one at that, anyway, but it would make as a plausible explanation. Spock2266 19:02, January 13, 2012 (UTC) We could suppose that; but my comment didn't. It would make any real-world Lt. Colt worry about a big, new cloud blocking her full potential in Starfleet. Separately, though, by the end of the episode, she is recovered, and asking the Captain an impertinent question about whether he lusts for her more than he does for the ship's Executive Officer. Again: a blemish in the script. Spike-from-NH 20:08, January 13, 2012 (UTC) PS--Captain Kirk has the same reaction to his new female yeoman (Janice Rand) in — but he has the discretion to save it for his physician in private. Spike-from-NH 22:26, January 13, 2012 (UTC) ::I've always chalked it up to "trying to identify with your audience". You know, softening the disorientation (or outright rejection) an audience of that era might have with a depiction of women officers. Welcoming your audience to join you on the unusual adventure, because you understand them. Bringing them along. Remember, there were still a LOT of veterans around from WWII back then, Roddenberry among them. And Pike was definitely the audience-indentifier in that episode, more so even than Kirk later.-- 17:47, April 10, 2012 (UTC)